Gender bias is a topic we revisit frequently. Why? Because it’s a problem for so many women in various work environments, and it’s not going away. The keys are for us to increase our awareness, learn to use proven techniques in dealing with bias, and affect change in workplace policies. It’s all here in today’s show, so join us to learn more.
Andie Kramer is an accomplished attorney, champion and advocate for women, and co-author of It’s Not You, It’s the Workplace: Women’s Conflict at Work and the Bias that Built It. She has a very successful and demanding legal career and has helped thousands of women navigate both the obvious and the subtle gender biases they encounter in all of their career settings. Observing that mentorship opportunities for young professional women were scarce and limited, she co-founded the Women’s Leadership and Mentoring Alliance to recruit senior women to mentor and support young women on their way up. In her latest book, Andie partnered with her husband, Al Harris, and brings a unique, holistic perspective to the work of raising awareness of gender bias and what to do about it.
Breaking the partner ceiling
It’s important to focus on how we can make workplaces less gendered and less biased against women. There are different ways to achieve professional success, and many of these skills came naturally to Andie. One of these skills is having a sense of humor in the face of what could be potentially offensive. Andie shares a story of a long – term business associate who was clearly unimpressed with her gender at their very first meeting years ago.
Playing nice vs. playing the game
In addition to a sense of humor, it’s important to have an understanding of who you’re dealing with and the biases they hold against women. It can be disheartening to have to prove yourself over and over again. The truth is that women also hold stereotypes against women, just as men do. This is part of what prompted Andie and her husband to write their book. Women think if they do a good job that they’ll be recognized for it, but men grow up knowing it takes more. Girls and boys are socialized differently, with girls being taught to play nice, while boys are taught to play the political games in the workplace. Andie explains why you have to learn to invite yourself to the “boys’ lunches.”
Different social identities
There are key areas where women can have conflict with each other just as easily as they do with men. Being the same gender doesn’t mean having the same political views or level or competency. Women may have different views about their place in the world, which are largely influenced by the unique parts of our social identities and our orientation in the world.
Andie’s many awards
Andie was named one of the 50 most influential women lawyers in America by the National Law Journal. This type of recognition is important and shouldn’t be dismissed. Women are taught to be humble, modest, and sweet, deflecting any praise from an early age. Andie explains how we need to learn to say thank you. For women, awards and accolades help validate the fact that there is something special about us. We need friends, allies, and sponsors who help nominate other women for awards.
The workplace today
Because of the pressure of the Me Too movement, well-intentioned men who also might have sponsored, mentored and supported women are pulling back and not helping women in the workplace. Andie calls it “impropriety bias.” Organizations need to make mentoring women an important part of their responsibility. It can be a formalized agreement that helps senior leadership see the women who are rockstars.
Andie’s partnership with Al
Andie and her husband, Al, have a satisfying partnership. They have written books together and supported each other, even though they challenge each other to come up with solutions together that are better than what they could do individually. They have key differences in perspectives and approach things from different angles, even though they understand and complement each other.
Saying no
Saying yes all the time is a problem for women because saying no seems like a form of permanent rejection. We need to ask ourselves if saying yes to a certain project will be advantageous to our careers in the same sense that men do. Andie calls this “benevolent bias,” which is something that holds women back and doesn’t give us the same opportunities as men. Andie’s advice is to never say yes on the spot!
Changing policies
A key step in making change is providing information because information is powerful. We have to make sure that the unintentional biases that people have can’t influence people’s careers. This is why we have to change policies since we can’t change people. The biases that we’ve been hard-wired to have about age, gender, and skin color are hard to break. Andie says that we can’t expect the goodwill of people to solve our problems.
Bias in elections
Studies show that someone has a greater chance to be struck by lightning than a woman being taken seriously in a presidential election. Now we see multiple women in the democratic field, so the more women there are increases the chance that one will make it. What’s happened is that blatant, intentional, and explicit bias has become more acceptable in the public conversation than it was four years ago. We have to be conscious of the obvious misogyny and racism that have come to the forefront of many conversations.
Highlights of this episode:
- 5:05 – Breaking the partner ceiling
- 9:00 – Attributes of women who make it to partner level
- 11:48 – How boys and girls are socialized differently
- 16:51 – All women aren’t in the same bucket
- 19:40 – Why women have to learn how to say Thank You
- 27:01 – The need for sponsorship and mentorship for women
- 30:43 – Andie’s partnership with her husband, Al
- 36:16 – Saying no
- 43:32 – Changing policies, not people
- 44:53 – Gender and feminism in our world today
- 55:01 – Fem Five
Resources mentioned:
- www.andieandal.com
- Check out Andie’s free gifts for NextFem listeners: an assessment to handle gender bias situations and a Book Club Guide for It’s Not You, It’s the Workplace: Women’s Conflict at Work and the Bias that Built It.
- It’s Not You, It’s the Workplace: Women’s Conflict at Work and the Bias that Built It by Andie Kramer and Al Harris
- Flygirls: How Five Daring Women Defied the Odds and Made Aviation History by Keith O’Brien
The Fem Five:
1. Favorite book to recommend for women?
- Flygirls: How Five Daring Women Defied the Odds and Made Aviation History by Keith O’Brien
2. Favorite self – care hack?
- “I make jewelry and sell it for charity.”
3. Best piece of advice and who gave it to you?
- “Al always tells me not to take things personally.”
4. Female CEO or thought leader you’re into right now?
5. One piece of advice you’d give your five years younger self?
- “Perfection is overrated. We need to give ourselves permission to not be perfect.”
Last Time on The NextFem Podcast
The Unwinnable Game of Modern Day Motherhood – with Jodi Darter
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